pepperstreet VIP
Total posts: 3,834
19 Apr 2013 06:05

(Re-Written Cobalt7 topic, including new screenshots and additional thoughts about default ordering and default custom field ordering.)

Issue

Impossible to enter, modify and keep a manual order of articles :O

Do we really miss the obvious? Where and how to order the articles?! Funnily, I did not notice it earlier, because i had to deal with date-based entries only. i.e. events, classifieds.

The section parameter "primary order" contains the usual suspects i.e. misc dates, alphabetical, random etc.

Bildschirmfoto 2014-04-17 um 23.47.40

But nothing like "as is" or "default backend order". Which is found in ALL other Joomla managers and other CCKs, AFAIK. Why is there no backend ordering at all? Very strange and a really big drawback for Cobalt applications, IMHO.

One might think... hey, I can use my own Cobalt field for my sorting order.

Bildschirmfoto 2014-04-17 um 23.49.57

But... this allows to add custom fields to frontend sorting order menu only! It can't be set in backend as an initial/primary order, which is used on list view by default! :(

Conclusion:

Currently it is impossible to create a default custom order. Neither by default and backend records order, nor by a custom field. Records are numbered# and also have an #ID. But there is no "ordering#" property or DB-column. Such an "#order column" is found in almost any Joomla list, backend manager and other 3rd-party extension.

Besides typical ordering by dates or field values, there are many other listings and layouts, which need a default custom order.

Most wanted and very crucial for:

  • product catalogs
  • services pages
  • team and staff pages
  • any other none-date based listing!

Product Catalog pages: For sure there are categories... but product ordering in those categories is totally up to the client or product properties and further groups. A client might think in his own tree-hierarchy. A product listing might need a special layout and even most important: The product items amount and ordering changes! Products are added/removed over time.

Staff or Team pages: You arrange people by a particular manual order or you need to create a logical group i.e.: their importance and job function, your personal liking, or even group them by their hair-color ;-) you name it. There is no typical date or A-Z order.

Company Services page: You don´t have a sorting criteria, except for you own "weighting" and importance. My second thought was: o.k., the latter might be solved by a custom field... BUT since a section can't have a custom field for default/primary sorting order... it is pretty useless too use my own field.

=> All those use cases require a manual default order in backend. I even think this order(weighting) should be editable in frontend as well!
=> A custom field can be marked and displayed as sortable... but it can´t be selected in Section ordering parameter! This would help a lot and opens a lot of possibilties!!!

I think, something like "weight#" or "order#" should be a basic feature and record property.

Joomla 2.5 ordering:

Joomla 3 with handy drag'N'drop feature:

and allows to override the default ordering in the menu-item parameters.

In regards of Cobalt, this override is best placed in list template parameters?!

This way, you can have different "views" and "orders" for categories in the same section.

Last Modified: 26 Jan 2015

Tags Cobalt 9


Sergey
Total posts: 13,743
19 Apr 2013 06:34

Do you mean this?


pepperstreet VIP
Total posts: 3,834
19 Apr 2013 07:51

(moved and mixed comment into initial post)


Sergey
Total posts: 13,743
22 Apr 2013 03:26

Understood. I will try to add manual ordering for articles.

and it would be handy to override this section ordering in the menu item parameters (like it is done for J! and other extensions, see last option in screenshot)

We will not go this way. We wil not add parameters of display in menu parameters. Because it all depends on Itemid. If it is lost, then there is no sense. You know it used to be that way in Resources or JoomSuite Content at that time. But we do not want this any more.


pepperstreet VIP
Total posts: 3,834
14 Apr 2014 18:42

Sergey We wil not add parameters of display in menu parameters. Because it all depends on Itemid

What about parameter in Section list templates? That would make it very flexible and allows multiple views with different ordering. Maybe the better to set defaults i.e.: Which custom field should be used for default ordering. Maybe also a toggle for ASC/DESC.

Sergey Understood. I will try to add manual ordering for articles.

Yes, please!

PS: I moved this topic from C7 category. I am currently re-writing the initial post and had another thought about a related section parameter for custom order by custom field. Both features are very crucial, IMHO.


Sergey
Total posts: 13,743
15 Apr 2014 06:22

Nice investigation. I'll mark it as an idea. Because during Cobalt 9 development I'll go through all ideas and I'll go through this one too. Then I'll decide what to do.


pepperstreet VIP
Total posts: 3,834
15 Apr 2014 13:56

Sergey Because during Cobalt 9 development

Thanks for listening and confirmation... but isn't it a very crucial and even basic feature for current Cobalt8 release?

I know, this topic is quite old (C7!) and it might sound strange, that I am bumping it so late again... As I mentioned earlier, my C7 project was cancelled and another ME-Resources site migration was delayed for certain other reasons. More or less both have date related lists. Thus I totally forgot about this important issue.

I have been investigating solutions for an up-coming project (technical product catalog), and I am surprised myself! This missing feature is a "k.o." criteria for such an application. :o :(

Any last chance for Cobalt8 ?!?
Or say hello to Seblod or even Drupal!?


Sergey
Total posts: 13,743
16 Apr 2014 06:47

pepperstreet but isn't it a very crucial and even basic feature for current Cobalt8 release?

Yes, it is. I mean it is something that should be there. But i afraid that if I change ordering process, it will break how cobalt works on already active sites after update. This is because my expiriance with this part of the CObalt. Yu have to remember there was quite an amount of iisues regarting sorting and ordering. Every time I touch it other things break.

Here is the problem

Cobalt can save article in multiple categories. It means that ordering cannot be binded to article record in DB. because article may have few different ordering each one different in every category. So we have to bind ordering to article categories cross table. It also means that there should be some kind of UI that switch current category before ordring drag element become active. Because we have to know to which category we have to apply current ordering.

That is not an easy trick. If we would have single category submission scheme, I would add it easely.

Of, course I appologize that I did not add it to Cobalt 8 at the begining, because this subject is really very long. There was a lot of changes and I missed this feature somehow.

pepperstreet Or say hello to Seblod or even Drupal!?

C'mon Maik! Theer are ways around. You can set ordering by modified time and simply modify articles in needed order. Just open and save. There are ways around this problem. This is not a reason to say Goodbye to Cobalt.


pepperstreet VIP
Total posts: 3,834
16 Apr 2014 15:37

Sergey You can set ordering by modified time and simply modify articles in needed order. Just open and save... This is not a reason to say Goodbye to Cobalt.

No doubts, I am a huge fan of Cobalt! But in general my sites main functions all work from frontend, and i build solutions specific for the end-user and his knowledge and tasks. Even Joomla is relatively easy, I can't let users fiddle around with backend managers, especially creating single article menu-items. Thus I need a solution that can create "auto-menus", easy menus (Drupal), or allows custom ordering for display (Seblod). I need an easy to manage solution for a certain project and the client needs to manage the content on his own.

There are ways around this problem.

I thought a lot about many workarounds! That is the point: Too long!!!

  • custom order/weight field, but requires pre-filtered URLs and this has an impact on advanced search display, general site and menu setup etc.

  • hidden custom rating field would be fun. But no option since it is NO FILTER!

  • hidden composite-title to use A-Z order (requires a second title for display)
  • visible composite-title. Depends on client's product names, maybe type/number can be used as a visible pre-fix?! (best solution as far as Cobalt is concerned)

Sergey
Total posts: 13,743
16 Apr 2014 15:56

I already have few ideas how I implement it to work from frontend. that was easy in table view with fixed rows height. But that will not be easy in bloch view for example.

But anyway I do not see how I could do it in Cobalt 8.


pepperstreet VIP
Total posts: 3,834
16 Apr 2014 16:48

Sergey how I implement it to work from frontend. that was easy in table view with fixed rows height

You mean dragNdrop like in article manager? That would be cool, and it might be o.k. to have it in a special table template. I mean, just for frontend maintenance.

Maybe an interactive "manager-type" feature is not the only solution.

Frontend submission + Ordering:

I could imagine a selectbox (auto-complete/chosen) on the form. It asks for the "parent" record... where the current record will be placed and sorted. On after save, another routine may re-number the other records accordingly.

Example for the chosen/search combo:
record_position_target_parent_chosen_autocomplete


Sergey
Total posts: 13,743
17 Apr 2014 08:45

pepperstreet That would be cool, and it might be o.k. to have it in a special table template. I mean, just for frontend maintenance.

This is what I was thinking about. Something like ADMIN mode with makes it more like Joomla backend. Or separate view where you can manage all articles of all section in one list.


pepperstreet VIP
Total posts: 3,834
09 May 2014 19:50

Sergey You can set ordering by modified time and simply modify articles in needed order. Just open and save. There are ways around this problem

A modified date is absolutely no solution. Imagine the client edits his (multi-language!) product descriptions or simply corrects some spelling errors etc. BUT the ordering is already done and finished. This would always destroy the order again and again.


pepperstreet VIP
Total posts: 3,834
09 May 2014 19:56

pepperstreet => A custom field can be marked and displayed as sortable... but it can´t be selected in Section ordering parameter! This would help a lot and opens a lot of possibilties!!!

Apart from the records default order... it would be a huge advantage to select a sortable custom field as the section's default ordering! If this is a technical problem in section params, or because of multi-type sections... i think it could be also an option in the list template parameter.


Also mentioned in this topic.


Sergey
Total posts: 13,743
24 Aug 2014 04:04

pepperstreet it would be a huge advantage to select a sortable custom field as the section's default ordering!

Will do that in CObalt 9.


pepperstreet VIP
Total posts: 3,834
25 Jan 2015 17:30

Sergey

pepperstreet it would be a huge advantage to select a sortable custom field as the section's default ordering!

Will do that in CObalt 9.

+1 :)


makasu28
Total posts: 10
26 Jan 2015 01:25

This is great! I am looking for this!

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